Anything Unconscious Runs You

Melinda and Joanne had the pleasure of being interviewed by Elise Liu on her podcast Craving Food Freedom. They talked all about the Enneagram and Brainspotting.

(Scroll down for the transcript.)

How Joanne and Melinda Met

Elise: I know you two are both in the area in Silicon Valley, so how did you guys meet and where are you guys these days?

Melinda: We met during our internships when we were baby therapists, learning the ways of the world. When we first met, we did not like each other. Or I didn't like her. She didn't care.

I was about to go on maternity leave. She reached out to me before I came back to finish my hours saying, “Hey, I'm wanting to do a workshop about couples.”

I was really into relationship therapy at the time. She wanted me to help her out with that. That's ultimately how we met and continued. We hit it off from there. During our first workshop we found out that we worked really well together, but then she also pissed me off.

She changed my slides two hours before our workshop. I was like, “What…” can I cuss on this podcast? 

Elise: Oh, of course, of course. 

Melinda: Great. I was like, “What the fuck, Joanne?”

I'm a people pleaser. I was trying to be very direct without being too mean. 

We found out that we worked really well together.

There's like an alchemy. We're big on alchemy. We discovered that us working together is much, much more than just the sum of our respective cells. 

Elise: Speaking of that alchemy, I remember when I was online. Joanne's website, OliveMe popped up first and I love that she's doing self-esteem work and she's touching on Brainspotting and Enneagram and EMDR. Then the thing that popped up next was your website, Melinda. I thought  this is also such a lovely framework. You also focus on more EMDR and self-esteem. I could even sense the alchemy just from a third person perusing the websites.

I'm so curious. How did you two kind of stumble into the world of therapy and decide to do this and make this kind of your world?  

Melinda: Speaking about myself, I am an Enneagram Two. I've used the Enneagram to grow a lot and what that means is that I'm a helper. I'm a helper personality. It's not altruistic.

I find  worth and value and I convince myself I'm lovable by going outside of myself and being helpful to others. That's kind of the coping autopilot. So it makes a lot of sense that I would go into therapy. 

I was the advice giver in college. I mean, probably the annoying advise giver. I always think I know better, right? 

There's a lot of things that went into my choosing this particular profession. However, as I've done a lot of growth work, I think the thing that makes me really excited about therapy and why I've continued on in the field is more because something that my personality type doesn't do is learn to understand who we are inside and our values inside. Kind of the architecture of our internals, what our needs are, and who we are if nobody's watching. In doing that work I'm so, so, so loving doing that work with others and watching them fall in love with themselves. That's what keeps me here in this work. 

I'm not gonna lie and say, “I  was so great when I first started in therapy, I was so healed.” I think a lot of us join this field, especially when we're younger, because of our respective autopilots.

As we hopefully do our own internal work then we come to more awareness of why we started in the first place and find a path that's healthier.

I'm also just a people person. I tell my clients I'm nosy as fuck. Tell me all the tea. I want to know everything about your life.

This is a really great job for that. 

Elise: I've taken the Enneagram before and my boyfriend, my partner, is an Enneagram Two. Last night I was cooking dinner. When I'm in the kitchen I'm like a whirlwind. I'm like, “Babe, I don't need you right now. I just need you to do other things.” 

He paused in his steps and his heart dropped. He's like, “Babe, that was so sad for me. Why did you say it like that?”

Melinda: That is so me. I can literally feel, my heart like, oh, that poor guy!

Elise: His puppy eyes came out and I was like, wow, I've just cut him down so deep on a level I didn't even realize.

Melinda: Now you know why I probably went into the therapeutic profession.

Who We Work With

Elise: I think it's great that you mentioned that because sometimes I think about my own patients and with food. I think sometimes we eat to run away from either feeling or ourselves. I think there's an element of, if you don't like yourself enough or if you haven't honored the promises you wanted to do for yourself at the end of the night you're just trying to run away from yourself.

Who are the patients that come to see you guys? What is the thing that they always say? First session, they're like, I'm here for this.

Melinda: I think it's different for both of us. Because we show up so differently. Actually how we work, though we do similar things, they're so different.

Joanne is kind of an ideas distiller and I'm the heart of the operation. You distill the idea of the person that comes to you. 

Joanne: It depends on my mood. 

Melinda: She's an Enneagram Four. Lots of feelings.

Elise: You're a Four, Joanne? When I took it years ago I was a Four, but these days I'm a Five.

Joanne: This is one specific thing about the Enneagram that isn't as widely known and it's about sub-types. There are nine types but three versions per type. So there are 27 sub-types and one of the three per type doesn't quite follow the rules.

Melinda: Doesn’t fit the stereotype.

Joanne: It's called a counter type. I happen to be a counter type Four, so I'm a Four that doesn't look like one. 

Going back to  your question earlier, what brought me into this field. It's a typical self preservation Four thing to deal or not deal with their own suffering by aligning with other people in their suffering.

It's a way to avoid dealing with my own struggles, my own pain, by distracting myself with other people's stuff.

A typical trait for Fours is that they like spontaneity and diversity and they don't like doing monotonous things. The kinds of people who tend to reach out to me vary from those who are very conscientious, responsible, empathic people who take on other people's stuff so much so that they get burnt out or resentful or both.

That's mostly what shows up on my current homepage. Sometimes they find me through other avenues because they finally want to launch their business, but they're having so much imposter syndrome, perfectionism and all that kind of stuff.

There's some people who reach out specifically because of the Enneagram.

There are tons of Enneagram Coaches, not a lot of Enneagram Therapists. The Enneagram has been super helpful in helping people feel known and seen for their experiences, because 20 people in a room can have anxiety for all kinds of different reasons. Instead of just tossing whatever approach or modality at them when they feel seen that really expedites their healing process.

Melinda: I agree.

I think in terms of the people that show up into my space it's very similar themes. They're people who are so focused on other people and taking care of other people: caretakers, helpers, et cetera, that they're starting to have a crisis of self. They're understanding other people are going to let them down. They're growing more and more resentful, burned out and they need a place to land. That is a client that I tend to see. 

The clients that I tend to see are craving a soft place to land. I tend to give my clients a lot of welcoming and comfort and care. I'm kind of like the therapist BFF. I want them to feel really seen and heard but I'm going to challenge you to look internal and ask yourself “why?” Why is perfectionism coming up? Why are you eating and drinking at the end of the night? What are you trying to run away from? How can we claim all the parts of ourselves, even the parts that we don't think are that attractive? How can they understand who they are? 

It's coming out and they're not really understanding, they kind of feel unmoored. They're not really grounded within themselves. I have a lot of clients who are like, I'm not really figuring out my relationships. I can't really seem to get traction. I am feeling really mad and I don't really understand why I'm so resentful at the people around me. I have this “feeling spiral” that I get caught in over and over again and I don't know how to get out of it, I'm just so stuck. My clients have really big feelings, too.

Our Passions

Elise: What lights you up as you do this work with a client?

Melinda: I use an Enneagram framework to help my clients to grow. What lights me up is using the Enneagram on a non-shallow level to help my clients grow away from these automatic coping mechanisms that they have that are their number. 

Your number is an automatic, autopilot coping mechanisms. The Enneagram provides a framework to move away from that. 

The thing that lights me up, like I'm just thinking about my clients in the last couple of weeks, it's the  moment where they're like, “Oh my gosh, I just realized this automatic thing that I do. I caught myself in the middle of it. I didn't beat myself up. I didn't have shame around it. I really just embraced the fact that I'm human and gave myself grace and moved on.”

I'm getting chills as I talk about it. That is just somebody falling in love with who they are. Understanding more deeply about themselves and embracing themselves with all their squishy human parts.

People are squishy and weird and beautiful! 

What lights me up is people really, deeply understanding themselves in all their imperfections.

Elise: It is so cool. I could say something similar for my work with my clients where it's exactly that moment of, I didn't feel guilty because I know myself and I know that I didn't do anything bad.

It's this coming to a place of neutrality with food and themselves ultimately and their bodies. It's like any neutrality or inching towards acceptance always causes a downstream effect for all positive things with food. Those are also moments where I'm like, yes, this is the moment I've been waiting for all week. Yes, this is music to my ears!

Joanne: For me, I am obsessed with the idea of a flow state, finding a sweet spot. 

In high school for my physics project I happened to choose a sweet spot on a baseball bat or a tennis racket or whatnot. I still have muscle memory of how good it feels when the ball hits the bat at a point where it's minimal energy input from me but maximum output for the ball. 

When people find that mode in themselves where the experience itself is already the reward, but how far they go is like a bonus. I think in that sense the Enneagram, our autopilot, or kind of where there's so much friction and there's so much energy that's lost, so many opportunities missed, because of all its reactivity and chafing and drama.

It really wears people down for one. Then the opposite of that is when they can find their stride in finding healing for themselves and feeling free to make decisions according to what fits in the moment instead of according to what they're used to. That freedom is like, ugh! It's delicious.

That's one part. 

Another part is type Four is known for being an individualist. But I really love seeing people in their own element and being able to fully show for who they are. 

Let's say there's a grassy field and there's all these green blades of grass, except for one, it's that one that sticks out like a sore thumb. But if all the blades in the grass field are different colors then everyone is themselves but they can also belong. 

Helping people find that is my jam.

Fear and Motivations

Elise: I will say when I first found out about the Enneagram it was helpful because it helped me understand what motivated people and what people were afraid of. Those were the two things that stood out to me. So when it comes to a personal level, or maybe even beyond, when people don't know what motivates them and what they're afraid of how does that affect someone versus once they do realize?

Joanne: When a person finds out or reads a description of their actual type, it's like, “Oh my gosh. I'm found out.” They're feeling mortified but also validated and seen at the same time. It's like, “Someone can finally put words to all the stuff that I kind of sensed was going on internally. I hate that someone else knows about it, too.” That's a starting point, it's like, okay, now I don't feel like I have to stay trapped in this forever. 

Melinda: Our teachers say this, Beatrice Chestnut and Uranio Paes, they’re our Enneagram gurus, teachers and really helped us to know the Enneagram and the way that we practice it. “Anything that's unconscious runs you.” It's in control. If you don't know your fear and motivation. If you're not aware of those and how they show up they're just running you from the background. It's not like they go away.

I love the Enneagram because it points those things out to us but also sheds a lot of light on the things that you're doing that you're not aware of or the ways that you focus your attention that you had no idea about.

Again, it runs you from behind. It's like that engine. That's one of the things that keeps you in these patterns and these ways of being that feels so sticky and bad.

Elise: I'm so curious for you two, before this awareness, when you guys were kind of just living life, what were some of the behaviors, the subconscious behaviors, that weren't serving you? That trapped you?

Joanne: You know how Melinda mentioned that we disliked each other in the beginning or that  I didn't notice or it didn't bother me. 

That was my autopilot because mine is to numb and shut down and so I had no idea, being very internal and within myself, the actual impact that I was having on other people. My R.B.F game is so strong. I was so inside myself, disconnected from the outside world, not having any idea, not even registering that other people are actually there. Then scaring people.

Melinda: For me, I would find myself in relationships that felt very uneven. I would find myself constantly resentful of how much effort I was putting in to other people, my close people, and in my mind not getting back what I was wanting. 

At the same time not really having a good idea of my feelings. 

I was this outward oriented, like, I will tell you, I mean this is where the pride comes in. Twos are very prideful. “I'll tell you everything about yourself. I know your foibles, I know your facial expressions. I know how to get you to like me. I know how to get you to do what I want you to do.” I was doing that but without any consciousness. 

It's like, “Oh, like I love that scarf. Oh, your hair's so cute!” These are the things and the ways that we manipulate to get what we're needing which is to know that we're lovable. 

That is what I did. Flattered, complemented, was very nice. “Do you need anything? How can I help you?” Not really vulnerable, having a hard time showing up as human. While at the same time having all these really big feelings. Not really being able to pinpoint what they were and so going along in life and then they explode.

“Oh, I feel these big feelings. I don’t know what's happening right now.” 

That plus a history of trauma for me. It’s just this beautiful soup, right?

I think that that's probably a fairly good description of how I was.

Elise: It's interesting. For Melinda it was a point of explosion for Joanne, did you have that moment? Or was it like a slow simmer?

Joanne: The type Four is all about suffering and death and dying.

Fours suffer way too much. A lot more than they really need to. All the types create their own suffering but Fours do it by using suffering as a security blanket. It's like taking pride in being the one to endure things or whatnot. Not wanting to be vulnerable or to ask for help because it's as if it confirms that I'm not enough or whatever. 

Melinda: I call my Four clients Masochists.

Joanne: My narrative in life was, of course these bad things would happen to me because I deserve it. It's just what I attract or whatever. 

Then I found out that’s what my autopilot does. I'm so zoned in on the bad things in life or what's lacking in me and totally missing that there's actually still a lot of good in life, too. That's in my blind spot and I didn't realize it.

It took a lot of inner reconstruction to realize shit happens. 

Shit happens to me and also it happens to other people. I'm not singled out by the universe.

I can acknowledge that I did experience hardships but it's not because of me. It's just because I'm a finite, limited human being living in a broken world. It makes it impersonal and I think that really freed me up instead of it being my identity. 

Also the idea that I am an equal with every other person on this planet and that because of that, I too deserve goodness. I deserve to know that I'm already whole. 

Elise: The same thing happened to me when I took the test. I took it because my roommate at the time was a psychology major. She said, “You have to take this test.” My mind was blown too. It was spot on. 

The Enneagram and Brainspotting

I'm wondering too when it comes to integrating the Enneagram work with the Brainspotting and like EMDR. I know so many people logically know: I am whole, I am complete, I am enough. They can convince themselves all day, saying this out loud, but does the Brainspotting and EMDR help it trickle down just a little bit deeper?

Melinda: So much more. 

Something we learn about our brain anatomy in Brainspotting is that the prefrontal frontal cortex in your emotional brain and amygdala it's hard for them to actually connect. This is why you can't talk yourself out of feelings.

You can't reason yourself out of emotion. 

Emotion is a somatic experience. You feel it in your body. What Brainspotting does is it kind of goes around your prefrontal cortex, goes straight to your emotional brain and helps you process via your emotional brain.

Joanne: And the lizard brain.

Melinda: And the lizard brain, your mid brain and your amygdala, your brain stem. 

It helps you to process on that level. So actually you're able to heal and take in these truths via that part of your body which is then why you have this felt sense of I'm enough. I'm whole, I'm good enough, I'm lovable. I was already whole.

I'm about lovability. My motivation was feeling lovable and Joanne’s motivation was feeling enough.

Elise: I am so curious, because I don't know if a lot of people know about this, but what does Brainspotting work look like? What is it even? 

Joanne: Brainspotting is a derivative of EMDR. 

EMDR has been around since the eighties. It came when someone discovered that they were doing a lot of de-processing while they were walking and their eyes were shifting back and forth. That's EMDR.

Brainspotting is kind of a spinoff of that except instead of having the eyes look back and forth it's about finding a specific eye position and just staring off into that spot. Our bodies know how to do this already. It's kind of how our bodies process things in general. 

Melinda: Like if you've ever spaced out. You're looking at a certain spot and you find your brain kind of going.

Joanne: Or for veterans or trauma survivors, the thousand mile stare. It seems like they're looking at something but they're not really looking at something. They're looking in that direction while they're actually looking internal, sometimes without even knowing. It's just that for those people, they do it accidentally and they don't always know how to come back out to the surface. 

Melinda: They're not utilizing it for healing necessarily. 

Joanne: For those folks, they might actually amplify the trauma experience. Brainspotting therapy, doing that internal work is like deep water diving to excavate whatever is down there, the further down you go, the darker it gets, the more disorienting it is. You don't know which side is up. It's like therapy is when there's a trained person sitting on the boat on the surface who can pull that person back out when the time is up or things are getting too intense or whatever, so that the person can be even more freed up to go even further down.

Melinda: I think also what Brainspotting provides, it's the person up at the surface, but they also helped you to have a protective suit. We always talk about how the attunement is kind of the protective part of Brainspotting.

You know that you have a kind, present, caring other, and that creates safety in the body so that you can dive. It provides that protective casing to be able to deep dive into these places knowing that they're okay, that they're not actually living that out again. So this isn't about flashbacks with all this discombobulation. You know that you're doing this within a safe, contained space and that actually does a lot for the brain to allow it to kind of heal itself. 

Joanne: One of the things that I learned from a Brainspotting training, the trainer said, “The biggest trauma that we experience isn't the event of the trauma. It's to do it alone.”

That we are the only ones who've been through that experience and feeling unknown. Feeling like no one else gets us. No one else is there for us. That's actually the biggest pain point.

Brainspotting therapy would reverse that by being that the therapist would be very present, very attuned to the client as the client becomes very attuned to themselves in their inner world.

Melinda: Like I said earlier, I don't do therapy that I've never done myself. Both of us are clients of Brainspotting. We've each received Brainspotting for our own healthcare.

Elise: Wow. This is fascinating. And this is the first time I'm hearing about it and this experience.

Feel free to share as little or as much as you want, but when you had your own first Brainspotting session what was that like for you?

Melinda: My first Brainspotting experience, and this is usually true of most people right now at least, is during a training. Part of training for Brainspotting is you receiving Brainspotting from your Brainspotting partner as you're learning to do this. 

I was attending my first Brainspotting training and just had this intuitive sense that I had some things that I needed to resolve via Brainspotting. So I sought out one of the trainers. They make themselves available for the people coming to the training just in case there are things that they need to process through. 

I actually singled out one person. I was like, you're the person, you're the trainer. I need to do a Brainspotting session with you. That was my very first brain spotting session. 

It was intense. 

I did something called gaze spotting. I already knew what I wanted to process inside of myself. What happens in gaze spotting is your eyes kind of fall on the spot that you know intuitively that's what you need to process.

So that happened kind of intuitively for me and I felt very safe with this person. So essentially he just witnessed what he thinks is a lot of pre-verbal trauma come up. 

Everybody's Brainspotting experience can be different and everybody, even experience to experience, for the same person can be different.

For me that time it was very somatic. I kind of flashed like hot and cold. I think at one point I was in the fetal position on the ground. Because it's a somatic healing experience. 

I was going through a lot of flashes of images, memories, thoughts, kind of rapid succession as my brain is processing all of this stuff. Then I'm feeling the feelings that come kind of in waves. So you are crying and you're like, “oh, I think this is why I'm crying.”

But again it's not a prefrontal cortex experience, so you could be crying and you're like, “I don't know why the fuck I'm crying right now.”

But I'm flashing these things as I'm looking in this direction.

That is what it felt like from the inside. By the end of it, I felt very solid, very…

Joanne: It's hard to talk about. It's really hard to talk about. Like, very intuitive.

Melinda: It's super intuitive. It's almost like I was swiss cheese and there were parts of me that were not holes anymore, being filled in. I was exhausted too. I fell asleep. I sat out the last session and I fell asleep on the gymnasium wall floor. 

It's somatic work. It can be really, really hard work, but it was so healing and to have him there. I would say, “Is this okay? Is this okay that you're here? Is this boring?” He's like, “You do whatever you need to do. I'm right here.” Even just having somebody do that while you're processing such trauma is so healing.

Elise: Wow. It's crazy to hear that this was not a substance that you're taking, you're just kind of going within.

Joanne: But it can feel like it!

Melinda: But I've also had a client fall asleep during Brainspotting and that's normal, too. It's so varied in its experience. 

Joanne: It's like the body intuitively knows what it needs to heal. You're going into the deep lizard brain and then the thinking brain turns off.

So when we set up Brainspotting sessions I often recommend that people clear out the rest of the day. They're not going to be able to work, they're not going to be able to do anything super detail oriented.

I would say don't even try to drive immediately after a Brainspotting session because you're going to feel like you're drunk .

Emotions are Messengers

Elise: Fascinating. That is so interesting.

We all live in the Silicon Valley, so a lot of our patients are just living up here all day long. This morning I had a man who was an engineer and I was just thinking you're doing this thing with your diet and it doesn't seem like it's giving you much joy. He's like,” I don't think like that. I just go off of logic. I don't really need to think about my feelings and just push through.”

Never really understanding or even giving space to feel feelings. That's when we run into trouble at one point.

Melinda: For sure.

Elise: I have a feeling my audience too will think feeling feelings is so uncomfortable that to escape that we'll do anything. We'll eat, we will distract, we will do anything.

Melinda: To be honest, we catch ourselves doing that, too. That is something we do as well. 

But if we're talking about neutrality, no shame, just understanding too, with the awareness comes like, “Oh, I'm doing that thing again, okay.” That's neutrality. It's an awareness and noticing and then being able to redirect yourself. The more we can do that, the better.

Joanne: I think about intense emotions like being on a roller coaster. Some people are like, “I don't want to do this. I don't want to be on the roller coaster.” So they get off halfway. Where are they going to go? 

The experience of having the courage to actually feel the feeling, it's not going to take as long as they think it will. They think it's going to take hours and hours and days and weeks or that they're just going to be trapped. In actuality a roller coaster at most takes two minutes. Two minutes is a pretty long roller coaster. 

With Brainspotting it can feel like being on a roller coaster because you don't know where it's going. But if you have the courage to actually get back on and allow the process to do what it needs to do then you'll actually get back to the safe territory. Our emotions move on once they fulfill their mission.

Melinda: But they're not going away unless you receive the message.

Joanne: They all have a purpose. They all have function. It's just a lot of people don't even know that emotions have functions. At best a lot of people think that emotions are like pests that you try to squat away and keep at bay. 

Melinda: There's an imagery that I use around feelings and emotions that I would probably use with this client of yours. If you've ever read Harry Potter in the very beginning you have the owl that delivers the mail, “You are admitted to Hogwarts” and they never let Harry read the mail. So two come back. Then four. Then eight. Then it just exponentially rises as you keep denying the message.

That's emotion.

You can go to like the island in the storm, that's what the Dursleys do, right? They go to the cabin in the middle of the ocean. Yeah, you can do that.

It works for a while. 

Joanne: They're going to find you . 

Melinda: They’re going to fucking find you. You might as well receive the message. 

Joanne: Because them coming back, that's what a trigger is. 

Melinda: It comes back exponentially bigger than it could have. So, read the message. If you can learn even that it's getting delivered in the first place. Some people don't even hear that.

Ride the roller coaster.

Elise: I think we try so hard to push through in life like, “I will just think positively. I will push through.” But it always ends up catching up to you.

Joanne: Thinking positively when the thing is not positive, it's just gaslighting.

Melinda: It's such bullshit. I think that's a toxic positivity.

Elise: It's one of those things, we're talking about this and in some parts really vague, but in some parts it's really tactical, the tools that you give people. 

I think for anyone who's feeling stuck, I'm going to give my own example right now because it might be helpful. Whenever I try to make content, whether it's creating a podcast episode or anything like that, and putting myself out there, the thing that keeps me stuck is, I'm not that interesting. I'm not that good of a person. Someone's better than me at this. I don't even like myself that much. Why would anyone else want to see this? 

That's the thing that's keeping me stuck and I've seen this over and over again. 

For anyone who has the same issue, and I'm sure there's a lot of people, it will come out in different ways, whether it's with your career or with food or with body.

The work that you guys do helps unwind and untangle some of that. I'm so glad I got to learn this modality because it seems so, so helpful. 

Melinda: We love it.

Joane: I would say that the Enneagram plus Brainspotting in the Enneagram might be like if you go to a massage therapist. They ask you, “Are there any pain points in your body? Any place that I should kind of be more gentle with?” They're scanning your body looking for painful knots that have built up over overuse, that puts the whole body out of alignment. 

That's our autopilot, that's where we get stuck. We overdo a certain set of patterns. 

Brainspotting will be massaging out those knots so that we can gain access to our full body and be whole and balanced again. Can't get enough of it.

Havenly Counseling Collective

Elise: It's amazing. Can't get enough of massages and fall asleep

If anyone who's listening wants to learn more about this work and what you guys do, where can they find you and what would working with you guys look like?

Joanne: Havenly Counseling Collective is our business name in Los Gatos near 85 and 17.

In terms of what it would be like for people to work with us, we're a collective of all kinds of healing professionals. Currently, we mostly have therapists but everyone is different. They're their own person and they have their own business. What we share in common is that we really value doing our own personal work so that our bullshit doesn't spill over into our client sessions. 

The feel, our vibe, our brand, our office space are all the same, in that we want to create a home where people can land among community.

Melinda: Havenly is kind of like that trusted friend who always gives like the badass referrals to the things you need. Havenly is that for clients. 

Should somebody want to get the care and communitythat they're looking for, which is in such short supply in Silicon Valley, that would be their entry point. Havenly is kind of the community that we're building that allows people to be seen and grow. Havenly connects you with some, I personally, truly believe, quality therapists that can help you further that journey. 

Joanne and I both have our own respective businesses under Heavenly, and then we have a couple of other clinicians here, too. And they are badass. 

That's how they would connect with us.

And they get to choose. Every person has their own ideal therapist and what they need. Hopefully Havenly is one of the ways that they can get what they're needing.

Elise: I love that. I think you guys bring such positive energy and it's so great to see. Talk therapy is great, but I think you guys bring such specialized knowledge in a spot where there’s a blind spot and it goes deep.

If you're looking for work that goes deep, then you're in good hands with these two. It was so nice talking and I can't wait to keep in touch.